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Jan. 31st, 2008 10:01 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
benchiladaOkay, rather than try to address everybody separately, let me lay it out like this:
1) I DO NOT ACTUALLY WANT RALPH NADER TO DIE IN A FIRE.
2) For heaven's sake, at what point did I declare that I don't want you to vote for him, or that he shouldn't run? I'm saying that I don't want to vote for him and that I don't even want him to run. I'm even saying that I'm still angry at him for 2000 and 2004.
I will clarify but will not apologize for my opinions, just as wouldn't expect you to apologize for yours.
In exchange, I ask that you not make up what you think I'm saying. Among the things I didn't say are "spoiler," "throwing away your vote," "scapegoat," or whatever the hell else you read into what I said.
I mean, did y'all miss how I've been rooting for Kucinich? I'm all about voting for what you believe in; I happen to believe that Nader running for a third time will be a third mistake.
3) I didn't vote for Nader in 2000 or 2004 and I wouldn't have no matter what. I thought he was running a shoddy campaign that failed to get across any of his major opinions and instead spent far more time attacking the "system" than trying to win. Shouting "Vote for me because I'll change the way government works...also here are my beliefs!" doesn't cut it for me. Hell, as far as I'm concerned--and I'm not alone on this, do some research on how some party members and officials felt--he was running for the Nader Party in 2000, not the Green Party.
4) I was wrong when I said that math shows Gore would have won without Nader and without winning Florida. That having been said, Nader's own words--"In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all"--mean, if taken as gospel, that Gore would have won Florida.
7) I don't give a shit about when Perot ran. I didn't then and I don't now. Okay, I cared a little back then because it was fun watching Mr. Batshit go Even More Batshit. I didn't care about his actual chances because I'm concerned when somebody running affects the people who have similar beliefs to me, not to the other side. And yeah, I think Nader running affects the chances of a more left-wing person getting into office.
b) What the hell is wrong with me "Nader-bashing?" Should I talk nice about him just because he tried to establish a third party...errrr, I mean tried to win the Presidency...errr, I mean, tried to force change? Fuck that. I don't care how many "balls" it took him to run--although I suspect it was two--and I don't think that I need to admire or respect him just because he ran for President under the auspices of wanting change. That's what Perot did. Hell, that's also why Howard Phillips ran, right?
6) Here's an article from the NYT--and please, don't rail on why you think or don't think that it's a valid source of information--that I find interesting about Nader post-Bush win.
7) I think that what Nader has done is ultimately sad; he took his legacy as a character of great change in the 20th century and has all-but-ensured that people will remember him for his presidential runs and not for the phenomenal things he did before them. I'm saddened when I think of what ELSE he could have done with his time.
The moral of my story?
Please debate away; you know I love that. Shout all you want. Express yourself. Be angry or sad or happy...but be civil. Don't insult each other for no reason. Don't poke a growling dog just to prove it will bite you. Try to understand why people are saying what they are; try to express your own beliefs; listen to people.
And don't put words in people's mouths.
Have a great night,
b
1) I DO NOT ACTUALLY WANT RALPH NADER TO DIE IN A FIRE.
2) For heaven's sake, at what point did I declare that I don't want you to vote for him, or that he shouldn't run? I'm saying that I don't want to vote for him and that I don't even want him to run. I'm even saying that I'm still angry at him for 2000 and 2004.
I will clarify but will not apologize for my opinions, just as wouldn't expect you to apologize for yours.
In exchange, I ask that you not make up what you think I'm saying. Among the things I didn't say are "spoiler," "throwing away your vote," "scapegoat," or whatever the hell else you read into what I said.
I mean, did y'all miss how I've been rooting for Kucinich? I'm all about voting for what you believe in; I happen to believe that Nader running for a third time will be a third mistake.
3) I didn't vote for Nader in 2000 or 2004 and I wouldn't have no matter what. I thought he was running a shoddy campaign that failed to get across any of his major opinions and instead spent far more time attacking the "system" than trying to win. Shouting "Vote for me because I'll change the way government works...also here are my beliefs!" doesn't cut it for me. Hell, as far as I'm concerned--and I'm not alone on this, do some research on how some party members and officials felt--he was running for the Nader Party in 2000, not the Green Party.
4) I was wrong when I said that math shows Gore would have won without Nader and without winning Florida. That having been said, Nader's own words--"In the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all"--mean, if taken as gospel, that Gore would have won Florida.
7) I don't give a shit about when Perot ran. I didn't then and I don't now. Okay, I cared a little back then because it was fun watching Mr. Batshit go Even More Batshit. I didn't care about his actual chances because I'm concerned when somebody running affects the people who have similar beliefs to me, not to the other side. And yeah, I think Nader running affects the chances of a more left-wing person getting into office.
b) What the hell is wrong with me "Nader-bashing?" Should I talk nice about him just because he tried to establish a third party...errrr, I mean tried to win the Presidency...errr, I mean, tried to force change? Fuck that. I don't care how many "balls" it took him to run--although I suspect it was two--and I don't think that I need to admire or respect him just because he ran for President under the auspices of wanting change. That's what Perot did. Hell, that's also why Howard Phillips ran, right?
6) Here's an article from the NYT--and please, don't rail on why you think or don't think that it's a valid source of information--that I find interesting about Nader post-Bush win.
7) I think that what Nader has done is ultimately sad; he took his legacy as a character of great change in the 20th century and has all-but-ensured that people will remember him for his presidential runs and not for the phenomenal things he did before them. I'm saddened when I think of what ELSE he could have done with his time.
The moral of my story?
Please debate away; you know I love that. Shout all you want. Express yourself. Be angry or sad or happy...but be civil. Don't insult each other for no reason. Don't poke a growling dog just to prove it will bite you. Try to understand why people are saying what they are; try to express your own beliefs; listen to people.
And don't put words in people's mouths.
Have a great night,
b
